As part of the Wardley Maps Community YouTube channel (subscribe here), John Grant and Ben Mosior recently sat down with Sue Borchardt and Andie Nordgren.

Sue is a research artist whose remarkable videos on topics like strategy for peace and justice, solitary confinement, and complexity are breathing fresh life into our discourse at a point in time when it’s desperately needed.

Andie is former Executive Producer of EVE Online; current Director of Live Platform at Unity Technologies; and has leading ideas around play-driven learning and participatory processes.

Together, the group discusses how we learn, the “tools” and “trojan horse” metaphors, power dynamics, safety, and, of course, Wardley Mapping.

They also answer the age-old question — does playing EVE Online net you the equivalent experience of an MBA?

The above video is shared courtesy of the Wardley Maps Community YouTube channel under the Creative Commons Attribution license.